Discussion:
Offensive terms for South Africans (Was: Ethnic insults)
(too old to reply)
Father Ignatius
2006-05-13 09:28:04 UTC
Permalink
(A list of some of the common ones here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#Spaniards)
Now that is a cool page.

I note the entry:

'Boer , referring to Afrikaners, meaning "farmer"; originally in universally
accepted usage, the term is now obsolete and used pejoratively.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#South_Africans
is

It does not seem to me to be obsolete: I hear it used quite orphan --
sometimes pejoratively, sometimes satirically and sometimes pridefully, as
in 'A boer maak 'n plan'. I saw some '100% BOER' T-shirts at Riebeek-Wes
yust the other day.

'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners' is new
to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk etymology.
--
Nat (posting from alt.usage.english)

"Even Baptists are individuals."
--The Orlando Sophistricate
Donna Richoux
2006-05-13 10:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Father Ignatius
(A list of some of the common ones here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#Spaniards)
Now that is a cool page.
'Boer , referring to Afrikaners, meaning "farmer"; originally in universally
accepted usage, the term is now obsolete and used pejoratively.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#South_Africans
is
It does not seem to me to be obsolete: I hear it used quite orphan --
sometimes pejoratively, sometimes satirically and sometimes pridefully, as
in 'A boer maak 'n plan'.
But perhaps they mean obsolete as an active term *in English*. Do
English speakers use it freely? Perhaps they quote the fixed saying you
give?
Post by Father Ignatius
I saw some '100% BOER' T-shirts at Riebeek-Wes
yust the other day.
I see it quite often in Dutch, as noun, verb, adjective, element in a
compound... "Boerenkaas" is quite highly regarded, as farm-made cheese,
instead of factory-made.
Post by Father Ignatius
'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners' is new
to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk etymology.
No idea. Sounds like one of those "Oreo" type jokes (black on the
outside and white in the middle). Are mechanical clutchplates famous for
anything?... Onelook links to the Dictionary of Automotive Terms, which
says:

clutch plate:
The clutch discs.

clutch disc:
A spinning plate located at the end of the
driveshaft facing the engine flywheel and covered
with a friction material such as asbestos. When the
clutch is engaged, the disc is squeezed between the
flywheel and the clutch pressure plate, causing the
engine and the transmission to turn at the same
speed. British term is called "clutch plate."

Are the Afrikaners squeezed between the flywheel and the pressure plate?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Robert Kay
2006-05-16 17:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Father Ignatius
(A list of some of the common ones here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#Spaniards)
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Father Ignatius
Now that is a cool page.
'Boer , referring to Afrikaners, meaning "farmer"; originally in universally
accepted usage, the term is now obsolete and used pejoratively.'
Boer originates from Dutch, and means Farmer - plain and simple. It was
taken over into the Afrikaans language with originally the same meaning.
Because of that, English speakers, and especially black people, started
using it as a derogatory term referring to white Afrikaners, and also
denoting police for instance, which, in the apartheid days, was mainly made
up with Afrikaans speaking members.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#South_Africans
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Father Ignatius
is
It does not seem to me to be obsolete: I hear it used quite orphan --
sometimes pejoratively, sometimes satirically and sometimes pridefully, as
in 'A boer maak 'n plan'.
But perhaps they mean obsolete as an active term *in English*. Do
English speakers use it freely? Perhaps they quote the fixed saying you
give?
Post by Father Ignatius
I saw some '100% BOER' T-shirts at Riebeek-Wes
yust the other day.
I see it quite often in Dutch, as noun, verb, adjective, element in a
compound... "Boerenkaas" is quite highly regarded, as farm-made cheese,
instead of factory-made.
Post by Father Ignatius
'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners' is new
to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk etymology.
No idea. Sounds like one of those "Oreo" type jokes (black on the
outside and white in the middle). Are mechanical clutchplates famous for
anything?... Onelook links to the Dictionary of Automotive Terms, which
The clutch discs.
A spinning plate located at the end of the
driveshaft facing the engine flywheel and covered
with a friction material such as asbestos. When the
clutch is engaged, the disc is squeezed between the
flywheel and the clutch pressure plate, causing the
engine and the transmission to turn at the same
speed. British term is called "clutch plate."
Are the Afrikaners squeezed between the flywheel and the pressure plate?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-16 17:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Boer originates from Dutch, and means Farmer - plain and simple.
Yes, but are farmers supposed to be 'plain and simple'? Isn't that
rather the fallacy that our dear Uncle Bob up North has been guilty of
propagating of late?
Peter Moylan
2006-05-17 09:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Boer originates from Dutch, and means Farmer - plain and simple.
Yes, but are farmers supposed to be 'plain and simple'? Isn't that
rather the fallacy that our dear Uncle Bob up North has been guilty
of propagating of late?
Meanwhile, the English word "boor" has citations for the derogatory
sense as early as 1562.

While looking this up, I was surprised that the English word was first
borrowed from Old French, and only later (1500s) re-borrowed from Dutch.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 3 months of life left.
Robert Kay
2006-05-18 20:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Boer originates from Dutch, and means Farmer - plain and simple.
Yes, but are farmers supposed to be 'plain and simple'? Isn't that
rather the fallacy that our dear Uncle Bob up North has been guilty of
propagating of late?
The plain and simple of course refers to the translation of boer into
farmer, but then, you knew that, didn't you?

But, jokes aside, farmers I have known were plain and simple people. By
simple I'm not implying stupid, but down-to-earth people. Not too many airs
and graces, in other words.
Al in Dallas
2006-05-18 22:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Boer originates from Dutch, and means Farmer - plain and simple.
Yes, but are farmers supposed to be 'plain and simple'? Isn't that
rather the fallacy that our dear Uncle Bob up North has been guilty of
propagating of late?
The plain and simple of course refers to the translation of boer into
farmer, but then, you knew that, didn't you?
But, jokes aside, farmers I have known were plain and simple people. By
simple I'm not implying stupid, but down-to-earth people. Not too many airs
and graces, in other words.
"It's a gift to be simple...." is *not* a paean to stupidity. (I'm
agreeing with you, that is.)
--
Al in St. Lou
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 01:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Boer originates from Dutch, and means Farmer - plain and simple.
Yes, but are farmers supposed to be 'plain and simple'? Isn't that
rather the fallacy that our dear Uncle Bob up North has been guilty of
propagating of late?
The plain and simple of course refers to the translation of boer into
farmer, but then, you knew that, didn't you?
But, jokes aside, farmers I have known were plain and simple people. By
simple I'm not implying stupid, but down-to-earth people. Not too many airs
and graces, in other words.
Yes, I suppose that's true - they're difficult to maintain in wellies. I
tend, though, to think of Cassius' "I'm just a plain blunt man" in the
context of 'plain and simple', though.
John Holmes
2006-05-13 11:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Father Ignatius
'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners'
is new to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk
etymology.
It's not from Boer = Borg (Warner, makers of clutches), is it?
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Pat Durkin
2006-05-13 15:23:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Father Ignatius
(A list of some of the common ones here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#Spaniards)
Now that is a cool page.
'Boer , referring to Afrikaners, meaning "farmer"; originally in
universally accepted usage, the term is now obsolete and used
pejoratively.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#South_Africans
is
It does not seem to me to be obsolete: I hear it used quite orphan --
sometimes pejoratively, sometimes satirically and sometimes
pridefully, as in 'A boer maak 'n plan'. I saw some '100% BOER'
T-shirts at Riebeek-Wes yust the other day.
'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners'
is new to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk
etymology.
Do you think it might come from "Dutch" in some way? I assume it is
pejoritive.
Dutchpate, or some other word transliterating the initials in the
syllables, as in a spoonerism, and referring to either an accent or a
fixed way of thinking. (I know it's not a sentence.)
Steve Hayes
2006-05-13 16:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Father Ignatius
'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners'
is new to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk
etymology.
Do you think it might come from "Dutch" in some way? I assume it is
pejoritive.
Dutchpate, or some other word transliterating the initials in the
syllables, as in a spoonerism, and referring to either an accent or a
fixed way of thinking. (I know it's not a sentence.)
No, it's meant quite literally.

It refers to those who go to school to learn how to dismantle and reassemble
clutch plates.

I went to a school that didn't teach such things, but at an age when I would
have loved to have learned them. So I made a point of learning all the
Afrikaans terms for the parts of cars. All in vain, because when I left school
and worked with people who spoke Afrikaans, they called a "koppelaar" a
"clutch", and "ewenaar" a "diff", a "vergasser" a "carb", and a "ratkas" a
"gearbox" (AmE="transmission"). It was English-speaking South Africans who
liked to refer to a gearbox as a "rat case", and motor scooters as "roar
ponies".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Pat Durkin
2006-05-13 17:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Durkin
Post by Father Ignatius
(A list of some of the common ones here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#Spaniards)
Now that is a cool page.
'Boer , referring to Afrikaners, meaning "farmer"; originally in
universally accepted usage, the term is now obsolete and used
pejoratively.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#South_Africans
is
It does not seem to me to be obsolete: I hear it used quite orphan --
sometimes pejoratively, sometimes satirically and sometimes
pridefully, as in 'A boer maak 'n plan'. I saw some '100% BOER'
T-shirts at Riebeek-Wes yust the other day.
'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners'
is new to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk
etymology.
Do you think it might come from "Dutch" in some way? I assume it is
pejoritive.
Yuck! Can't figure out how that got past me!>
Steve Hayes
2006-05-13 16:04:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 13 May 2006 11:28:04 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
Post by Father Ignatius
(A list of some of the common ones here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#Spaniards)
Now that is a cool page.
'Boer , referring to Afrikaners, meaning "farmer"; originally in universally
accepted usage, the term is now obsolete and used pejoratively.'
Not to mention the Boeremag (Boer force) members of which are on trial for
treason and some are on the lam.

But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.

Of course such a term would have to be given by outsiders.
Post by Father Ignatius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_terms_per_nationality#South_Africans
is
It does not seem to me to be obsolete: I hear it used quite orphan --
sometimes pejoratively, sometimes satirically and sometimes pridefully, as
in 'A boer maak 'n plan'. I saw some '100% BOER' T-shirts at Riebeek-Wes
yust the other day.
'Clutchplate, used by English South Africans to refer to Afrikaners' is new
to me. I'd be interested in hearing an imaginative folk etymology.
New to me, too. I suspect it is an error.

But in this book

Heyns, Michiel. 2002. The children's day. Johannesburg:
Jonathan Ball. Dewey: 823.914

it was used by kids at a posh academic high school to refer to refer to those
who attended a technical high school. Nothing to do with Afrikaans or English
speaking, but used by those who were preparing for careers as doctors, lawyers
and stockbrokers to refer to those preparing for careers as greasemonkeys.

Perhaps someone read the book and misunderstood.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Tony Cooper
2006-05-13 16:31:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 13 May 2006 18:04:45 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.

Like any term, it can be delivered as an insult. So can "American",
"Southerner", and "New Yorker". The insult is in the tone and
context, but not in the word.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Salvatore Volatile
2006-05-13 17:07:37 UTC
Permalink
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
Like any term, it can be delivered as an insult. So can "American",
"Southerner", and "New Yorker". The insult is in the tone and
context, but not in the word.
How about "Septic"?
--
Salvatore Volatile
Father Ignatius
2006-05-13 17:00:03 UTC
Permalink
I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative term.
Like any term, it can be delivered as an insult.
<sigh>
--
Nat

"If you have to explain satire to someone, you might as well give up."
--Barry Humphries, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame_Edna
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-13 20:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Skokkie
2006-05-14 11:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-14 15:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
What's offensive about yanking a chain??
Skokkie
2006-05-15 17:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
What's offensive about yanking a chain??
It's the Loud, imperialistic and self righteous manner that they assume when
they yank the chain in other peoples toilets
Robert Kay
2006-05-16 17:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
What's offensive about yanking a chain??
Not offensive, I agree, but it could be dangerous. The cistern could come
crashing down upon you!
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-16 17:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
What's offensive about yanking a chain??
Not offensive, I agree, but it could be dangerous. The cistern could come
crashing down upon you!
I've never heard of it happening. Usually, even if it became detached
from the wall, the sturdy pipe would hold it there quite long enough for
anybody to evacuate the bog. In any case, you'd pull it down in front of
you, not over your head - if you were tall enough to reach the chain in
the first place!

Bog deaths that I've read about have involved the bowl collapsing and
the shards piercing both femoral arteries leading to extremely swift
exsanguination - porcelain produces very sharp and sturdy shards. So,
should you wish to worry, it is more from below that you ought to fear
for your mortality.
Chris Malcolm
2006-05-17 09:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
What's offensive about yanking a chain??
Not offensive, I agree, but it could be dangerous. The cistern could come
crashing down upon you!
I've never heard of it happening. Usually, even if it became detached
from the wall, the sturdy pipe would hold it there quite long enough for
anybody to evacuate the bog. In any case, you'd pull it down in front of
you, not over your head - if you were tall enough to reach the chain in
the first place!
Bog deaths that I've read about have involved the bowl collapsing and
the shards piercing both femoral arteries leading to extremely swift
exsanguination - porcelain produces very sharp and sturdy shards. So,
should you wish to worry, it is more from below that you ought to fear
for your mortality.
You don't have to pierce both. One is quite enough to kill you if
immediate heroic remedies are taken applied. This can also happen if
you sit on a beer glass, an accident which becomes more likely the
more you have recently emptied.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-17 12:21:18 UTC
Permalink
You don't have to pierce both. One is quite enough to kill you if
immediate heroic remedies are taken applied. This can also happen if
you sit on a beer glass, an accident which becomes more likely the
more you have recently emptied.
-----------------------------------------
True enough, but, unless you are particularly persistent it is unlikely
to rate as a 'bog death' as most people don't drink in their bogs.
the Omrud
2006-05-17 13:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Malcolm
You don't have to pierce both. One is quite enough to kill you if
immediate heroic remedies are taken applied. This can also happen if
you sit on a beer glass, an accident which becomes more likely the
more you have recently emptied.
-----------------------------------------
True enough, but, unless you are particularly persistent it is unlikely
to rate as a 'bog death' as most people don't drink in their bogs.
No, but I have been known to drink in the scenery.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-17 19:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
No, but I have been known to drink in the scenery.
I visited a building in Rosebank today and was admiring the view.
The "resident" of the office remarked sadly "The best view is from
the toilet". He was right. Magnificent.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Robert Kay
2006-05-18 20:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moira de Swardt
Post by the Omrud
No, but I have been known to drink in the scenery.
I visited a building in Rosebank today and was admiring the view.
The "resident" of the office remarked sadly "The best view is from
the toilet". He was right. Magnificent.
As long as no one can look into it.
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-19 04:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Moira de Swardt
I visited a building in Rosebank today and was admiring the
view.
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Moira de Swardt
The "resident" of the office remarked sadly "The best view is from
the toilet". He was right. Magnificent.
As long as no one can look into it.
No. The window is situated outside the actual stalls where one
washes ones hands, and, in the case of where I was visiting, up on
the fourth floor.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
FreeSpirit_uk
2006-05-19 01:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moira de Swardt
Post by the Omrud
No, but I have been known to drink in the scenery.
I visited a building in Rosebank today and was admiring the view.
The "resident" of the office remarked sadly "The best view is from
the toilet". He was right. Magnificent.
--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Reminds me of a long drop toilet where I used to live near Barberton. We
referred to it as the "room with a view". Nobody lived anywhere nearby for
miles and the door to it faced away from our living area and towards a
stunning view up the valley with pine plantations beyond that. A wonderful
setting for answering the call of nature. :-)
Robert Kay
2006-05-18 20:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Chris Malcolm
You don't have to pierce both. One is quite enough to kill you if
immediate heroic remedies are taken applied. This can also happen if
you sit on a beer glass, an accident which becomes more likely the
more you have recently emptied.
-----------------------------------------
True enough, but, unless you are particularly persistent it is unlikely
to rate as a 'bog death' as most people don't drink in their bogs.
No, but I have been known to drink in the scenery.
In the bog??
the Omrud
2006-05-18 22:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Post by the Omrud
Post by Chris Malcolm
You don't have to pierce both. One is quite enough to kill you if
immediate heroic remedies are taken applied. This can also happen if
you sit on a beer glass, an accident which becomes more likely the
more you have recently emptied.
-----------------------------------------
True enough, but, unless you are particularly persistent it is unlikely
to rate as a 'bog death' as most people don't drink in their bogs.
No, but I have been known to drink in the scenery.
In the bog??
If there's a view. There is sometimes.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Father Ignatius
2006-05-19 06:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Robert Kay
Post by the Omrud
No, but I have been known to drink in the scenery.
In the bog??
If there's a view. There is sometimes.
Sounds like something from Enid Blyton: shades of The Magic Faraway Tree (if
I remember its name correctly).

"I wonder if there'll be a view from the bog today?"

"Come on! Let's go and find out!"

"Hourah!"

"Come on, Timmy[1]!"

"Arf!"


[1] Guest crossover from The Famous Five.
--
Nat
http://www.pclips.com/pclipslite.php?id=1367
Robert Kay
2006-05-18 20:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
What's offensive about yanking a chain??
Not offensive, I agree, but it could be dangerous. The cistern could come
crashing down upon you!
I've never heard of it happening. Usually, even if it became detached
from the wall, the sturdy pipe would hold it there quite long enough for
anybody to evacuate the bog. In any case, you'd pull it down in front of
you, not over your head - if you were tall enough to reach the chain in
the first place!
Bog deaths that I've read about have involved the bowl collapsing and
the shards piercing both femoral arteries leading to extremely swift
exsanguination - porcelain produces very sharp and sturdy shards. So,
should you wish to worry, it is more from below that you ought to fear
for your mortality.
I shall keep that in mind - thank you. I'm not too worried about my cistern,
as it's a very light plastic, and waist high. However, referring back to the
overhead one - you might be right about the pipe supporting it. However,
when it does detach itself from the wall, it would in all probability be
quite old, and the pipe supposedly holding it up could well be rusted to a
large extent. I've seen some potential disasters in years gone by.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 01:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the
term
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
What's offensive about yanking a chain??
Not offensive, I agree, but it could be dangerous. The cistern could
come
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
crashing down upon you!
I've never heard of it happening. Usually, even if it became detached
from the wall, the sturdy pipe would hold it there quite long enough for
anybody to evacuate the bog. In any case, you'd pull it down in front of
you, not over your head - if you were tall enough to reach the chain in
the first place!
Bog deaths that I've read about have involved the bowl collapsing and
the shards piercing both femoral arteries leading to extremely swift
exsanguination - porcelain produces very sharp and sturdy shards. So,
should you wish to worry, it is more from below that you ought to fear
for your mortality.
I shall keep that in mind - thank you. I'm not too worried about my cistern,
as it's a very light plastic, and waist high. However, referring back to the
overhead one - you might be right about the pipe supporting it. However,
when it does detach itself from the wall, it would in all probability be
quite old, and the pipe supposedly holding it up could well be rusted to a
large extent. I've seen some potential disasters in years gone by.
Potential being the word.
Robert Kay
2006-05-16 17:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Tony Cooper
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
I have to agree. It might well be offensive to be a Yank, but the term
itself is neutral.
Except when it is used to describe what they do on the toilet!
No no, Skokkie. That's 'wank'.
Steve Hayes
2006-05-14 01:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 13 May 2006 18:04:45 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
Well, maybe not. Pom isn't always offensive either.

For South Africans, there's always "wog", which applies to all, but is not
specific enough, since it also applies to Kenyans, Indians and New Zealanders.
And it too, like "Yank" is not always offensive.

What about "Yanqui"?
Post by Tony Cooper
Like any term, it can be delivered as an insult. So can "American",
"Southerner", and "New Yorker". The insult is in the tone and
context, but not in the word.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Al in Dallas
2006-05-15 19:40:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 May 2006 03:43:46 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 13 May 2006 18:04:45 +0200, Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
We've done this before, but I disagree that "Yank" is a pejorative
term. I don't think it's even mildly offensive.
Well, maybe not. Pom isn't always offensive either.
For South Africans, there's always "wog", which applies to all, but is not
specific enough, since it also applies to Kenyans, Indians and New Zealanders.
And it too, like "Yank" is not always offensive.
What about "Yanqui"?
Post by Tony Cooper
Like any term, it can be delivered as an insult. So can "American",
"Southerner", and "New Yorker". The insult is in the tone and
context, but not in the word.
Isn't there some infamous line that goes "Wogs begin at Calais"? I
imagine only white racists living in England would actually use such a
term.
--
Al in St. Lou
Mike Lyle
2006-05-15 21:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Al in Dallas wrote:
[...]
Isn't there some infamous line that goes "Wogs begin at Calais"? [...]
..and stop at nothing! (I claim the coinage of the second clause when I
was a student; but it's easy enough to suppose I wasn't the first. I'm
sure that back then I was even the first person I'd heard use the
expression "greengrocer's apostrophe", but that's a pretty obvious
idea, too. I'd love to claim "boy racer" as a motoring pejorative, but
that was from a fellow-student...or so I believe.)
--
Mike.
Peter Duncanson
2006-05-15 22:42:17 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:40:00 -0500, Al in Dallas
Post by Al in Dallas
Isn't there some infamous line that goes "Wogs begin at Calais"? I
imagine only white racists living in England would actually use such a
term.
The line isn't used very often these days. The only times I've heard
or seen it it has been used jocularly. Oddly, in spite of the racist
connotations of "wog", the saying itself is not really racist, more
an expression of national superiority. It lumps together all
foreigners regardless of skin colour, appearance or language. For
the purposes of the saying, Calais is where the French begin, and
there is no important difference between the French and the Chinese,
Zulus, Germans, Arabs, etc. -- none of them are English (or
British).
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
Steve Hayes
2006-05-16 04:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson
The line isn't used very often these days. The only times I've heard
or seen it it has been used jocularly. Oddly, in spite of the racist
connotations of "wog", the saying itself is not really racist, more
an expression of national superiority. It lumps together all
foreigners regardless of skin colour, appearance or language. For
the purposes of the saying, Calais is where the French begin, and
there is no important difference between the French and the Chinese,
Zulus, Germans, Arabs, etc. -- none of them are English (or
British).
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Alan Jones
2006-05-16 06:54:10 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 May 2006 23:42:17 +0100, Peter Duncanson
Post by Peter Duncanson
The line isn't used very often these days. The only times I've heard
or seen it it has been used jocularly. Oddly, in spite of the racist
connotations of "wog", the saying itself is not really racist, more
an expression of national superiority. It lumps together all
foreigners regardless of skin colour, appearance or language. For
the purposes of the saying, Calais is where the French begin, and
there is no important difference between the French and the Chinese,
Zulus, Germans, Arabs, etc. -- none of them are English (or
British).
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
Just as Picts and Scots begin at St Alban's.

Alan Jones
Peter Moylan
2006-05-16 13:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Jones
Post by Steve Hayes
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
Just as Picts and Scots begin at St Alban's.
Are there any people left who self-identify as Picts? I was under the
impression that the Picts lost their cultural identity after too many
defeats by the Vikings, after which they just merged into the general
Scottish population.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 3 months of life left.
Alan Jones
2006-05-17 21:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Alan Jones
Post by Steve Hayes
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
Just as Picts and Scots begin at St Alban's.
Are there any people left who self-identify as Picts? I was under the
impression that the Picts lost their cultural identity after too many
defeats by the Vikings, after which they just merged into the general
Scottish population.
I'm sure you're right, but the Southern insult to Northerners is perhaps
very ancient.

Alan Jones
Robert Kay
2006-05-16 19:15:19 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 May 2006 23:42:17 +0100, Peter Duncanson
Post by Peter Duncanson
The line isn't used very often these days. The only times I've heard
or seen it it has been used jocularly. Oddly, in spite of the racist
connotations of "wog", the saying itself is not really racist, more
an expression of national superiority. It lumps together all
foreigners regardless of skin colour, appearance or language. For
the purposes of the saying, Calais is where the French begin, and
there is no important difference between the French and the Chinese,
Zulus, Germans, Arabs, etc. -- none of them are English (or
British).
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
I was always under the impression that WOG stood for Western Orientated
Gentleman. Must have been wrong all those years.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-17 18:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
On Mon, 15 May 2006 23:42:17 +0100, Peter Duncanson
Post by Peter Duncanson
The line isn't used very often these days. The only times I've heard
or seen it it has been used jocularly. Oddly, in spite of the racist
connotations of "wog", the saying itself is not really racist, more
an expression of national superiority. It lumps together all
foreigners regardless of skin colour, appearance or language. For
the purposes of the saying, Calais is where the French begin, and
there is no important difference between the French and the Chinese,
Zulus, Germans, Arabs, etc. -- none of them are English (or
British).
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
I was always under the impression that WOG stood for Western Orientated
Gentleman. Must have been wrong all those years.
It was thought to mean 'wily oriental gentleman', but the OED doesn't
agree, saying only that it is vulgarly offensive and intended to refer
to people of Arab extraction - the state of Israel is of Arab
extraction, come to think of it...
Peter Duncanson
2006-05-17 20:22:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 17 May 2006 20:57:33 +0200, "Peter H.M. Brooks"
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Robert Kay
On Mon, 15 May 2006 23:42:17 +0100, Peter Duncanson
Post by Peter Duncanson
The line isn't used very often these days. The only times I've heard
or seen it it has been used jocularly. Oddly, in spite of the racist
connotations of "wog", the saying itself is not really racist, more
an expression of national superiority. It lumps together all
foreigners regardless of skin colour, appearance or language. For
the purposes of the saying, Calais is where the French begin, and
there is no important difference between the French and the Chinese,
Zulus, Germans, Arabs, etc. -- none of them are English (or
British).
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
I was always under the impression that WOG stood for Western Orientated
Gentleman. Must have been wrong all those years.
It was thought to mean 'wily oriental gentleman',
That is how it was explained to me. It is only recently that I came
across the Western Orientated Gentleman or Westernised Oriental
Gentlemen versions.
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
but the OED doesn't
agree, saying only that it is vulgarly offensive and intended to refer
to people of Arab extraction - the state of Israel is of Arab
extraction, come to think of it...
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
Steve Hayes
2006-05-18 01:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
It was thought to mean 'wily oriental gentleman', but the OED doesn't
agree, saying only that it is vulgarly offensive and intended to refer
to people of Arab extraction - the state of Israel is of Arab
extraction, come to think of it...
In common usage, however, it means "anyone not from around here".

When I matriculated at Durham University, I didn't have a Natal University
hood, so I borrowed a hood from someone who had graduated at Reading
University, which looked rather similar. A bloke from Sunderland made a remark
to the effect that one wog college was as good as another.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
JF
2006-05-17 18:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
On Mon, 15 May 2006 23:42:17 +0100, Peter Duncanson
Post by Peter Duncanson
The line isn't used very often these days. The only times I've heard
or seen it it has been used jocularly. Oddly, in spite of the racist
connotations of "wog", the saying itself is not really racist, more
an expression of national superiority. It lumps together all
foreigners regardless of skin colour, appearance or language. For
the purposes of the saying, Calais is where the French begin, and
there is no important difference between the French and the Chinese,
Zulus, Germans, Arabs, etc. -- none of them are English (or
British).
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
I was always under the impression that WOG stood for Western Orientated
Gentleman. Must have been wrong all those years.
War Office Garment.
Steve Hayes
2006-05-18 00:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Kay
Post by Steve Hayes
The version I heard was "Wogs begin south of the Trent".
I was always under the impression that WOG stood for Western Orientated
Gentleman. Must have been wrong all those years.
That's a contradiction in terms, or could be, depending on whether your regard
"Western" as qualifying "Orientated" or "Gentleman".

Is it a western gentleman who's facing east, or one who, janus-like, is facing
both directions at once?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-13 19:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
I don't think that there is one. We haven't been around, as South
Africans, long enough to cause enough offence to have such a term.

Saffers is the best term that I've heard and it isn't offensive.

In the days of apartheid, if you were white, 'South African' or, as it
was rendered 'Suf Ifrican' was sufficiently insulting.
Stephen Calder
2006-05-14 00:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
I don't think that there is one. We haven't been around, as South
Africans, long enough to cause enough offence to have such a term.
Saffers is the best term that I've heard and it isn't offensive.
In the days of apartheid, if you were white, 'South African' or, as it
was rendered 'Suf Ifrican' was sufficiently insulting.
What about jaapies? Neutral, rather than offensive, I guess.

I notice that this word referring to South Sfricans has not made it into
the major dictionaries, despite its appearance in Partridge's volume on
slang.

It's well known enough in Australia to have appeared in the Sydney
Morning Herald. I have a citation from August 1992.
--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Steve Hayes
2006-05-14 01:13:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Calder
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
I don't think that there is one. We haven't been around, as South
Africans, long enough to cause enough offence to have such a term.
Saffers is the best term that I've heard and it isn't offensive.
In the days of apartheid, if you were white, 'South African' or, as it
was rendered 'Suf Ifrican' was sufficiently insulting.
What about jaapies? Neutral, rather than offensive, I guess.
I notice that this word referring to South Sfricans has not made it into
the major dictionaries, despite its appearance in Partridge's volume on
slang.
It's well known enough in Australia to have appeared in the Sydney
Morning Herald. I have a citation from August 1992.
Would they apply it, for example, to Makhaya Ntini?

Within South Africa "plaasjapie" used to be applied by Woozers to rural
Afrikaners, but I haven't heard it much recently.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Stephen Calder
2006-05-14 04:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Stephen Calder
What about jaapies? Neutral, rather than offensive, I guess.
I notice that this word referring to South Sfricans has not made it into
the major dictionaries, despite its appearance in Partridge's volume on
slang.
It's well known enough in Australia to have appeared in the Sydney
Morning Herald. I have a citation from August 1992.
Would they apply it, for example, to Makhaya Ntini?
I've only heard it applied to white South Africans.
--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Skokkie
2006-05-14 11:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Calder
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Stephen Calder
What about jaapies? Neutral, rather than offensive, I guess.
I notice that this word referring to South Sfricans has not made it into
the major dictionaries, despite its appearance in Partridge's volume on
slang.
It's well known enough in Australia to have appeared in the Sydney
Morning Herald. I have a citation from August 1992.
Would they apply it, for example, to Makhaya Ntini?
I've only heard it applied to white South Africans.
And Slopies? I remember that in the Rhodesian Army the Afrikaners were
referred to as Inclined Planes, lean to's, Shed head and many other terms
that inferred a slope as it was a disciplinary offence to refer to a member
of the South African Police (Who were supposedly assisting the Rhod Army) as
a Slopie
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-14 08:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Calder
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
I don't think that there is one. We haven't been around, as South
Africans, long enough to cause enough offence to have such a term.
Saffers is the best term that I've heard and it isn't offensive.
In the days of apartheid, if you were white, 'South African' or, as it
was rendered 'Suf Ifrican' was sufficiently insulting.
What about jaapies? Neutral, rather than offensive, I guess.
I hadn't heard that term for so very long that I didn't remember it. I
think that it is quite a charming one, actually.
Skokkie
2006-05-14 11:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
I don't think that there is one. We haven't been around, as South
Africans, long enough to cause enough offence to have such a term.
Saffers is the best term that I've heard and it isn't offensive.
In the days of apartheid, if you were white, 'South African' or, as it was
rendered 'Suf Ifrican' was sufficiently insulting.
The4 term Saffer was originated by the Australians as a form of mimicry of
the accent as re enunciated through their own vocal traditions. It is
offensive as the similarity to the K word was intentional and intended as a
wind up. We are all aware of a recent cricket match where the sheep shearers
were shouting it at the whiteys and got a few ethnic Africans hot under the
collar.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-14 15:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Steve Hayes
But I can't think of a single offensive term that covers all South Africans,
and nothing but South Africans. Nothing like Poms, Yanks, Micks, Krauts etc.
I don't think that there is one. We haven't been around, as South
Africans, long enough to cause enough offence to have such a term.
Saffers is the best term that I've heard and it isn't offensive.
In the days of apartheid, if you were white, 'South African' or, as it was
rendered 'Suf Ifrican' was sufficiently insulting.
The4 term Saffer was originated by the Australians as a form of mimicry of
the accent as re enunciated through their own vocal traditions. It is
offensive as the similarity to the K word was intentional and intended as a
wind up. We are all aware of a recent cricket match where the sheep shearers
were shouting it at the whiteys and got a few ethnic Africans hot under the
collar.
I wasn't aware of this cricket match.
McGoo
2006-05-17 23:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
I wasn't aware of this cricket match.
It happened this year sometime, it made the news in NSW although the match
was in WA. I figured it was white SA immigrants shouting at the black guys
who were supposedly failing the team.
Disgusting behaviour that reminds me that emigrating from a country with a
racist past (and present) does not afford these people immediate non racism.
I can understand slipups through upbringing and social conditioning but
outright racism makes me feel sick.

I hope they feel embarrassed and humiliated in front of their adopted
country.
--
mcgoo
:-) newsgroupie...
Steve Hayes
2006-05-18 01:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
I wasn't aware of this cricket match.
It happened this year sometime, it made the news in NSW although the match
was in WA. I figured it was white SA immigrants shouting at the black guys
who were supposedly failing the team.
Disgusting behaviour that reminds me that emigrating from a country with a
racist past (and present) does not afford these people immediate non racism.
I can understand slipups through upbringing and social conditioning but
outright racism makes me feel sick.
Whenwes are usually the most racist of all.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-18 04:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
I wasn't aware of this cricket match.
It happened this year sometime, it made the news in NSW although the match
was in WA. I figured it was white SA immigrants shouting at the black guys
who were supposedly failing the team.
Disgusting behaviour that reminds me that emigrating from a country with a
racist past (and present) does not afford these people immediate non racism.
I can understand slipups through upbringing and social conditioning but
outright racism makes me feel sick.
Whenwes are usually the most racist of all.
I've tended to find that - though it certainly isn't always the case.
Skokkie
2006-05-18 14:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
I wasn't aware of this cricket match.
It happened this year sometime, it made the news in NSW although the
match was in WA. I figured it was white SA immigrants shouting at the
black guys who were supposedly failing the team.
Disgusting behaviour that reminds me that emigrating from a country with
a racist past (and present) does not afford these people immediate non
racism.
I can understand slipups through upbringing and social conditioning but
outright racism makes me feel sick.
Whenwes are usually the most racist of all.
I've tended to find that - though it certainly isn't always the case.
They are not called whenwes any more they are Itoldyouso -
FreeSpirit_uk
2006-05-19 01:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skokkie
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
I wasn't aware of this cricket match.
It happened this year sometime, it made the news in NSW although the
match was in WA. I figured it was white SA immigrants shouting at the
black guys who were supposedly failing the team.
Disgusting behaviour that reminds me that emigrating from a country
with a racist past (and present) does not afford these people immediate
non racism.
I can understand slipups through upbringing and social conditioning but
outright racism makes me feel sick.
Whenwes are usually the most racist of all.
I've tended to find that - though it certainly isn't always the case.
They are not called whenwes any more they are Itoldyouso -
Or goodJobILefts
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-18 04:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
I wasn't aware of this cricket match.
It happened this year sometime, it made the news in NSW although the match
was in WA. I figured it was white SA immigrants shouting at the black guys
who were supposedly failing the team.
That would make sense. You can't generalise with accuracy about so many
people, but the ex-saffers that I met in New Zealand were a rather sorry
shower. They were there because they couldn't hack it here, as far as I
could see - they'd rather things were as they were under apartheid.
McGoo
2006-05-18 04:43:16 UTC
Permalink
They were there because they couldn't hack it
here, as far as I could see - they'd rather things were as they were
under apartheid.
I have found most Saffers in Oz are friendly and glad to meet others like
them. I have met total Afrikaaners and English speakers and have not heard a
racist word from them. The most they will say is that the crime was
overwhelming to live with and they feared for their families, esp children.
I think it is one of the hardest things to do - uproot your family and leave
familiar surroundings to settle in a very unfamiliar environment. You have
to hack it, and many can't so they go back - all at great expense and
inconvenience.
Some just find it boring here - no excitement so to speak.
--
mcgoo
:-) newsgroupie...
Peter Moylan
2006-05-18 05:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
They were there because they couldn't hack it
here, as far as I could see - they'd rather things were as they
were under apartheid.
I have found most Saffers in Oz are friendly and glad to meet others
like them. I have met total Afrikaaners and English speakers and have
not heard a racist word from them. The most they will say is that the
crime was overwhelming to live with and they feared for their
families, esp children. I think it is one of the hardest things to do
- uproot your family and leave familiar surroundings to settle in a
very unfamiliar environment. You have to hack it, and many can't so
they go back - all at great expense and inconvenience. Some just find
it boring here - no excitement so to speak.
I haven't met many - I suspect that most of them ended up in Western
Australia - so I can't form an opinion about South Africans in
Australia. I have noticed, however, that migrants from just about any
country end up in a "frozen in time" situation. They remember the old
country the way it used to be, and if they ever go back they discover
that they're strangers in their own land, because the country has
changed and they haven't.

I would expect English speaking South Africans to have a problem with
assimilation into Australia. Theoretically we have many cultural values
in common, but it's precisely when you're expecting things to be similar
that you have trouble with the differences. I've lived most of my life
in Australia, but have spent some time in France, Belgium, the USA, and
Canada. Of all of these, the USA gave me the biggest culture shock. I
went there with the impression that it was similar to Australia, so it
was a shock to find that it wasn't.

Competely off-topic, but I've just remembered it: the worst high school
teacher I ever had was an Afrikaaner. In a small country town it's hard
to get teachers - they prefer to stay in the cities - so in my final
high school year we had no Physics teacher for the first term. Then
somebody was found, but nobody had thought to check whether he could
speak English. In the end we just taught ourselves from somebody's
class notes from the previous year, while the teacher sat at a desk in
the front of the room, saying and doing nothing. In the entire 8 months
he was there, he never said one word to us.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 3 months of life left.
McGoo
2006-05-18 06:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I haven't met many - I suspect that most of them ended up in Western
Australia - so I can't form an opinion about South Africans in
Australia.
I have to admit that there is a large amount of Saffers in Sydney and
Newcastle. I don't really like running across them as they expect me to
speak Afrikaans and I have a terrible vocab for it now.

I have noticed, however, that migrants from just about any
Post by Peter Moylan
country end up in a "frozen in time" situation. They remember the old
country the way it used to be, and if they ever go back they discover
that they're strangers in their own land, because the country has
changed and they haven't.
It's generally a case of the when we's. I left SA just before the crime wave
hit, and like to remember it that way. I know I can't go back now things are
so different.
I generally don't have patience for people who can't move on anyway.
Post by Peter Moylan
I would expect English speaking South Africans to have a problem with
assimilation into Australia. Theoretically we have many cultural
values in common, but it's precisely when you're expecting things to
be similar that you have trouble with the differences. I've lived
most of my life in Australia, but have spent some time in France,
Belgium, the USA, and Canada. Of all of these, the USA gave me the
biggest culture shock. I went there with the impression that it was
similar to Australia, so it was a shock to find that it wasn't.
Absolutely. I have found that Australians have a hard time adapting because
they really are coddled in Oz, but the big wide world is really different.
Post by Peter Moylan
Competely off-topic, but I've just remembered it: the worst high
school teacher I ever had was an Afrikaaner. In a small country town
it's hard to get teachers - they prefer to stay in the cities - so in
my final high school year we had no Physics teacher for the first
term. Then somebody was found, but nobody had thought to check
whether he could speak English. In the end we just taught ourselves
from somebody's class notes from the previous year, while the teacher
sat at a desk in the front of the room, saying and doing nothing. In
the entire 8 months he was there, he never said one word to us.
Oh, my God. I remember our Afrikaans teachers not being very happy at our
English speaking Girls High School in PMB as they were outnumbered.
--
mcgoo
:-) newsgroupie...
Peter Moylan
2006-05-18 10:27:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter Moylan
I haven't met many - I suspect that most of them ended up in
Western Australia - so I can't form an opinion about South Africans
in Australia.
I have to admit that there is a large amount of Saffers in Sydney and
Newcastle. I don't really like running across them as they expect me
to speak Afrikaans and I have a terrible vocab for it now.
The world is smaller than I thought. I've just realised that you and I
are in the same city. With very different abilities to recognise
non-natives, it seems, because the only Africans that I notice here are
Sudanese, plus a handful of students whose origins I can never guess.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 3 months of life left.
McGoo
2006-05-18 11:22:15 UTC
Permalink
a handful of students whose origins I can never
Post by Stephen Calder
guess.
I actually live in Medowie which is really Port Stephens. Where are you?
I know what you mean. There are some really dark skinned people about in
Newie. I gathered after some scandal on the news that there is actually a
refugee centre in the Broadmeadow area.
I have met Saffers (love that word) in Boolaroo, Maryville, Medowie, Raymond
Terrace, Stroud. I have met a lot of people who have worked or lived next to
them too. They always pick my accent.
Are you related to SA in anyway?
--
mcgoo
:-) newsgroupie...
Peter Moylan
2006-05-18 12:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter Moylan
a handful of students whose origins I can never guess.
I actually live in Medowie which is really Port Stephens. Where are you?
I'm in Waratah, within sight of the city centre. Although the distances
aren't great, I go past Medowie about once in a blue moon. The last time
was when I took some Belgian visitors up to see the Port Stephens
dolphins, after which we took a sort of zigzag path home in the hope of
seeing some koalas (we didn't).
Post by McGoo
I know what you mean. There are some really dark skinned people about
in Newie. I gathered after some scandal on the news that there is
actually a refugee centre in the Broadmeadow area.
Quite a few Sudanese refugees have been resettled in Newcastle over the
last few years, and since they tend to be good walkers they can be seen
in all sorts of places. The scandal you heard about was probably when
the government contracted out the resettlement work to the lowest
bidder, rather than leaving it with the organisation with the experience
and competence to do the job. To complicate matters, the volunteers who
had been helping with the settling-in process - showing people how to
use telephones, how to do the shopping, getting medical help, teaching
them English, etc. - refused to do volunteer work for a for-profit
company, so the number of people in Newcastle doing this job dropped
from several dozen down to one single person, who didn't know what she
was doing and did it rather badly. This led to a few disasters,
including the much-publicised death of one child. I don't think the
problem was ever solved satisfactorily, although I think some of the
volunteers have been coaxed back.

The scandal before that was more a comedy than anything else. At some
stage leaflets flooded the city urging people to come to a rally to
demonstrate against the introduction of a threat against our racial
purity. (What purity?) A counter-rally was organised at very short
notice to welcome the Sudanese. On the day, reporters found seven
people (including the speaker brought up from Sydney) at the racist
rally, and about five hundred at the counter-rally. The racist
organisation continues to exist, and occasionally makes its presence
known by graffiti and so on, but as far as I know the membership
consists of one person in Newcastle and one in Sydney.
Post by McGoo
I have met Saffers (love that word) in Boolaroo, Maryville, Medowie,
Raymond Terrace, Stroud. I have met a lot of people who have worked
or lived next to them too.
First I meet people who think nothing of going for a 20 km walk, and now
here's someone who knows the area better than I do. All of those places
you mention are places that I pass through now and then, but rarely
visit. Although, now that I think of it, it was only yesterday that I
was telling myself that it's about time I climbed that hill above
Boolaroo that was rendered almost treeless by the Sulphide plant, to see
whether the vegetation is recovering. I must do that soon. I've been
wondering what the view from there would be like for years - in
principle it should be spectacular - but I've never seen a single person
on the hill, presumably because it's only recently that it stopped stinking.
Post by McGoo
They always pick my accent.
It's likely that I could pick a SAfr accent, because to me it's
distinctive, but on the other hand it must be 20 years since I last
heard one, if I don't count the TV and radio. I could easily pick
Afrikaans, for the simple reason that Nederlanders in Australia almost
never speak Dutch, even among themselves, so anything that sounds like
Dutch must be Afrikaans.
Post by McGoo
Are you related to SA in anyway?
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a bunch
of idiots into our midst.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 3 months of life left.
McGoo
2006-05-18 12:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm in Waratah, within sight of the city centre. Although the
distances aren't great, I go past Medowie about once in a blue moon.
The last time was when I took some Belgian visitors up to see the
Port Stephens dolphins, after which we took a sort of zigzag path home in
the hope
of seeing some koalas (we didn't).
I hardly ever go to Waratah unless it is on the way to somewhere else.
Medowie is very peaceful after living next to a railway line in Teralba! The
jets don't bother us anymore, lol.
I haven't seen any koalas either, don't worry.
I believe once incident involving refugees was that a few new ones came to
Oz and were left alone in a flat with a map and some money. Of course they
could speak no English and couldn't get around. I seem to remember a medical
emergency where they couldn't work out how to use the phone or something.
Pretty bad really.
Post by Peter Moylan
First I meet people who think nothing of going for a 20 km walk, and
now here's someone who knows the area better than I do. All of those
places you mention are places that I pass through now and then, but
rarely visit. Although, now that I think of it, it was only yesterday
that I
was telling myself that it's about time I climbed that hill above
Boolaroo that was rendered almost treeless by the Sulphide plant, to
see whether the vegetation is recovering.
That would be Munibung Hill. I think you can see Macquarie Hills over that -
not much really. Boolaroo is a great little place though.
Post by Peter Moylan
It's likely that I could pick a SAfr accent, because to me it's
distinctive, but on the other hand it must be 20 years since I last
heard one, if I don't count the TV and radio. I could easily pick
Afrikaans, for the simple reason that Nederlanders in Australia almost
never speak Dutch, even among themselves, so anything that sounds like
Dutch must be Afrikaans.
The mayor of Port Stephens is Dutch and I for the life of me was convinced
that he was Saffer until he told us his life story on Australia Day. I could
not believe how much the accent was the same as an Afrikaaner's.
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by McGoo
Are you related to SA in anyway?
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a
bunch of idiots into our midst.
I am new to newsgroups and the first one I got onto was alt.binaries.food
which is fantastic as I love to cook and they post fantastic pics of food.
They taught me a few things but I never realised that I was cross posting
until recently.

It is nice to meet a fellow Newie, so "aangename kennis" (pleased to meet
you).
--
mcgoo
:-) newsgroupie...
Peter Moylan
2006-05-18 13:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
I believe once incident involving refugees was that a few new ones
came to Oz and were left alone in a flat with a map and some money.
Of course they could speak no English and couldn't get around. I seem
to remember a medical emergency where they couldn't work out how to
use the phone or something. Pretty bad really.
My wife knows some of the people involved, because she works in medical
interpreting, and my son also got some of the inside story because he's
a member of Amnesty International. (In fact my son did a great deal of
lobbying with journalists to get some of the hidden stories out into the
open. The Immigration Department was trying very hard to keep it all
secret.) The case of the medical emergency was when a couple with a
sick child were dumped in a flat somewhere, given a phone card, and told
to dial 000 if there was any emergency. The child's health got worse,
but the people had never seen a telephone and certainly didn't know how to
use a phone card. (And even if they had, it was unlikely that anyone at
the 000 call centre would figure out what language they were speaking;
there are several languages spoken in Sudan, and it's hard to get
interpreters for any of them.) The father chased around the
neighbourhood and finally found a fellow Sudanese who was able to help,
but the help came too late and the child died. Under the previous
system, before the private company took over, the people would have been
given much more detailed instructions on how to get help, and anyway the
problem wouldn't have happened because the child's illness would have
been diagnosed via the medical check when they arrived in Australia.

Another case involved two young girls, about 15 or 16 years old, who
were put in a flat in Charlestown without luxuries like blinds on the
windows, and given a $20 food voucher and no further information. They
had both been raped and traumatised in Sudan, so they were scared to go
outside and went without food for a week. Finally starvation drove them
out the door to search for a food shop. A man driving past stopped and
offered to take them to his church, and they accepted. By the purest of
luck it turned out that he really did intend to take them to the church,
and the people there gave them food and things like sheets for the beds.
It could have turned out much worse.

The language problem continues to be a serious problem when people are
housed in random places with no clear idea of where they are. Most
problems can be solved if volunteers find them and put them in touch
with someone else who speaks their language, but until that time the
refugees are stuck in a strange place without even basic knowledge of
things like how to operate a stove or how to find a shopping centre.
It's mismanagement of the most stupid kind.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 3 months of life left.
McGoo
2006-05-18 13:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
It's mismanagement of the most stupid kind.
Yes, I have heard of these cases and am stupefied by how these people are
treated. It is hard enough to come to Oz with a background like theirs with
no English - you have to have such trust in people.
The government fails spectacularly in some ways and in others it does really
well. Amazing.

It turns out that we may have catered for your Christmas party last
December. (If you were still there).
--
mcgoo
:-) newsgroupie...
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-18 18:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
I am new to newsgroups and the first one I got onto was
alt.binaries.food
Post by McGoo
which is fantastic as I love to cook and they post fantastic pics of food.
They taught me a few things but I never realised that I was cross posting
until recently.
I'm delighted that you've decided to join us. I've been the sole
female voice calling in the Wilderness over on s.c.s-a up to now.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-18 18:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
Post by McGoo
I am new to newsgroups and the first one I got onto was
alt.binaries.food
Post by McGoo
which is fantastic as I love to cook and they post fantastic pics
of food.
Post by McGoo
They taught me a few things but I never realised that I was cross
posting
Post by McGoo
until recently.
I'm delighted that you've decided to join us. I've been the sole
female voice calling in the Wilderness over on s.c.s-a up to now.
In the drawing-room, dear, the Wilderness is over there...
McGoo
2006-05-18 23:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
In the drawing-room, dear, the Wilderness is over there...
Titter
McGoo
2006-05-18 23:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moira de Swardt
I'm delighted that you've decided to join us. I've been the sole
female voice calling in the Wilderness over on s.c.s-a up to now.
--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Thanks Moira, I enjoy a good conversation and do actually miss the SA way of
looking at things (even though I say otherwise at times). I didn't realise
you were the only female here. I figured that you were a journalist of some
kind - could you tell me more about that?
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-19 04:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
Thanks Moira, I enjoy a good conversation and do actually miss the SA way of
looking at things (even though I say otherwise at times). I didn't realise
you were the only female here. I figured that you were a
journalist of some
Post by McGoo
kind - could you tell me more about that?
I'm a freelance entertainment journalist. I got into it by writing
of my "adventures" on soc.culture.south-africa, then the people in
the industry started seeing my stuff, thanks to TJ reposting it on
his discussion group. From there I started marketing my stuff.
Sometimes I even sell an article or two. :-) Of course, I do have
to do other things to keep the bond paid and the car full of petrol.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-18 18:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a bunch
of idiots into our midst.
I enjoy a good, and relevant, crosspost. It opens things up so that
even the predictable responses of regulars on one's own newsgroup
are sometimes not in the usual mould. Of course, if each of the
newsgroups' resident troll enters the fray things deteriorate pretty
quickly. Our worst two trolls have gone off to sulk for a while,
for which I, for one, am very grateful. Unfortunately they both
tend to return from time to time.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-18 18:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moira de Swardt
Post by Peter Moylan
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a
bunch
Post by Peter Moylan
of idiots into our midst.
I enjoy a good, and relevant, crosspost. It opens things up so that
even the predictable responses of regulars on one's own newsgroup
are sometimes not in the usual mould. Of course, if each of the
newsgroups' resident troll enters the fray things deteriorate pretty
quickly. Our worst two trolls have gone off to sulk for a while,
for which I, for one, am very grateful. Unfortunately they both
tend to return from time to time.
I quite like wicked and irrelevant cross posts too, from time to time.
Irreverent as well as irrelevant can be entertaining. Trollfests aren't
pleasant or interesting, though.

'Troll' does also mean a song, a round or catch - so you can expect them
to turn up again and, like a round, be exactly as before.
McGoo
2006-05-18 23:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
'Troll' does also mean a song, a round or catch - so you can expect them
to turn up again and, like a round, be exactly as before.
Funny how when you mention troll that new names turn up immediately. Must be
some troll alarm setup on their email.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 01:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by McGoo
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
'Troll' does also mean a song, a round or catch - so you can expect them
to turn up again and, like a round, be exactly as before.
Funny how when you mention troll that new names turn up immediately. Must be
some troll alarm setup on their email.
I think some people do have such alarms. You only have to mention
Godel's theorem anywhere for Torkel Franzel to turn up and remind you
that he provided the world with more than one and to go out of his way
to try to demonstrate that nobody but he understands it whilst making
sure that he doesn't explain it to anybody or say one word more than he
feels necessary - it's a peculiar job, but somebody has to do it.
Alec Kojaev
2006-05-19 07:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
I think some people do have such alarms. You only have to mention
Godel's theorem anywhere for Torkel Franzel to turn up and remind you
that he provided the world with more than one and to go out of his way
to try to demonstrate that nobody but he understands it whilst making
sure that he doesn't explain it to anybody or say one word more than he
feels necessary - it's a peculiar job, but somebody has to do it.
I'm not sure he has Usenet access where he is now.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.logic/msg/36847f81050c349d
--
Alec
St.Petersburg, Russia [30E18 59N56]
the Omrud
2006-05-18 20:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moira de Swardt
Post by Peter Moylan
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a
bunch of idiots into our midst.
I enjoy a good, and relevant, crosspost. It opens things up so that
even the predictable responses of regulars on one's own newsgroup
are sometimes not in the usual mould. Of course, if each of the
newsgroups' resident troll enters the fray things deteriorate pretty
quickly. Our worst two trolls have gone off to sulk for a while,
for which I, for one, am very grateful. Unfortunately they both
tend to return from time to time.
AUE has been vaccinated against trolls. They rarely last more than a
few days. We're quite impressed with those who stick around for a
few weeks.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Al in Dallas
2006-05-18 22:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Moira de Swardt
Post by Peter Moylan
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a
bunch of idiots into our midst.
I enjoy a good, and relevant, crosspost. It opens things up so that
even the predictable responses of regulars on one's own newsgroup
are sometimes not in the usual mould. Of course, if each of the
newsgroups' resident troll enters the fray things deteriorate pretty
quickly. Our worst two trolls have gone off to sulk for a while,
for which I, for one, am very grateful. Unfortunately they both
tend to return from time to time.
AUE has been vaccinated against trolls. They rarely last more than a
few days. We're quite impressed with those who stick around for a
few weeks.
PP and PG are gone, but aren't there others we have failed to
*dispense* with?
--
Al in St. Lou
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 01:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al in Dallas
Post by the Omrud
Post by Moira de Swardt
Post by Peter Moylan
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a
bunch of idiots into our midst.
I enjoy a good, and relevant, crosspost. It opens things up so that
even the predictable responses of regulars on one's own newsgroup
are sometimes not in the usual mould. Of course, if each of the
newsgroups' resident troll enters the fray things deteriorate pretty
quickly. Our worst two trolls have gone off to sulk for a while,
for which I, for one, am very grateful. Unfortunately they both
tend to return from time to time.
AUE has been vaccinated against trolls. They rarely last more than a
few days. We're quite impressed with those who stick around for a
few weeks.
PP and PG are gone, but aren't there others we have failed to
*dispense* with?
Some groups are troll's conventions, visiting trolls find them hard to
deal with, not being accustomed to social intercourse.
Father Ignatius
2006-05-18 19:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Not at all. I'm in this conversation only because I hang around
alt.usage.english a lot. And because this is one of the very rare
occasions where a crossposting between newsgroups hasn't brought a
bunch of idiots into our midst.
"A deft and judicious cross-post is a thing of beauty."
--Salvatore Volatile
--
Nat
http://www.pclips.com/pclipslite.php?id=1367
Steve Hayes
2006-05-19 03:38:47 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 18 May 2006 21:10:49 +0200, "Father Ignatius"
Post by Father Ignatius
"A deft and judicious cross-post is a thing of beauty."
--Salvatore Volatile
Now you've gone and wook up Areff.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-18 18:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Competely off-topic, but I've just remembered it: the worst high school
teacher I ever had was an Afrikaaner. In a small country town
it's hard
Post by Peter Moylan
to get teachers - they prefer to stay in the cities - so in my
final
Post by Peter Moylan
high school year we had no Physics teacher for the first term.
Then
Post by Peter Moylan
somebody was found, but nobody had thought to check whether he
could
Post by Peter Moylan
speak English. In the end we just taught ourselves from
somebody's
Post by Peter Moylan
class notes from the previous year, while the teacher sat at a
desk in
Post by Peter Moylan
the front of the room, saying and doing nothing. In the entire 8 months
he was there, he never said one word to us.
I am acquainted with a woman who taught science who is one of these
rabidly anti-English Afrikaners. Refuses to speak a word of
English. She took a post at an English school where some of the
pupils were known to me. They were surprised to discover she was
Afrikaans. Turns out she speaks perfect, accentless (to local
English speakers) South African English.

The worst teacher I ever had taught church history at the seminary.
She read every lecture word for word and included so much extraneous
material that it was difficult to sift through what we had to know.
Years later, when working in a section where these things came my
way, I had the opportunity to view her evaluation by herself and the
one by her senior officer. Listed (by her) as one of her strengths
was "lecturing". She qualified this by mentioning that she was well
prepared and always provided extra material. Her senior officer
didn't query this. I reckon she (the senior officer) should have at
least attended one of the lectures delivered by the woman the
students nicknamed "Deadly" because she was dead boring.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-18 18:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moira de Swardt
The worst teacher I ever had taught church history at the seminary.
She read every lecture word for word and included so much extraneous
material that it was difficult to sift through what we had to know.
Years later, when working in a section where these things came my
way, I had the opportunity to view her evaluation by herself and the
one by her senior officer. Listed (by her) as one of her strengths
was "lecturing". She qualified this by mentioning that she was well
prepared and always provided extra material. Her senior officer
didn't query this. I reckon she (the senior officer) should have at
least attended one of the lectures delivered by the woman the
students nicknamed "Deadly" because she was dead boring.
The art to lecturing is to act. If you aren't caught up in enjoying the
lecture as a performance, improvising when your audience seems distant
(or having a break), throwing in the heavy meat when you can tell that
they're at their most alert and receptive - usually just after having
relaxed at a joke and stopping when they go to sleep, then you're never
going to be much good at it.

If you overdo the acting, of course, you're also, as with any acting,
done for.

That's why there aren't many good lecturers. You have to love your
subject, find the lecture interesting and enjoy delivering it. You also
have to get a kick from seeing others learn. As, again, with most
acting, you have to also lose yourself whilst lecturing. You become one
with the subject and the mood of the class, the class becomes like an
animal that you're riding and the subject of the lecturer the scenery
and you, like a horse tamer, have to whip the beast to a lather of
enthusiasm, whilst, like a dressage master, keeping it heading always
where you wish it to go. You can't be self-conscious while you're doing
that. After a class, you find yourself waking up, tired, empty and
thrilled. The biggest, big dipper isn't half the thrill.

If the class is mainly made up of the dim, though, it is more like
leading a slow donkey along the sands of Cardiff beach in the rain on a
cold Monday morning.

I failed one course at University, it was on Linear Algebra. It isn't a
terribly exciting subject, even to mathematicians, having far, far too
much of the long, hard slog about it, and little of the exciting
insight. However, the lecturer, a woman, clearly hated it with a passion
and had been forced to teach the course - presumably to atone for some
wickedness. It was impossible to have any enthusiasm for it, it was
difficult to keep awake, the subject became almost as tedious as
geography, taught by the usual standard of geography master.

Now, a brilliant lecturer could make it interesting - fascinating,
probably. However, a brilliant lecturer would be unlikely to ever do
anything quite so dishonest. Which is another reason why you're unlikely
to have anybody brilliant teaching geography. But then you don't find
many great horsemen leading donkeys along wet beaches.
Mike Lyle
2006-05-18 20:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
[...]
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
anything quite so dishonest. Which is another reason why you're unlikely
to have anybody brilliant teaching geography. But then you don't find
many great horsemen leading donkeys along wet beaches.
Interesting. In Br these days, geography teachers are among the most
inspired and creative. Presumably because successive governments have
decided that geography, like English, languages, history, the sciences,
mathematics, music, drama, RE, and PE, is an inessential subject, and
should be moved over to make room for IT and D&T -- these are given
lots of money for kit, but continue to be taught by people who don't
know anything about them. (What, me? Disgruntled parent? I don't know
what gave you that idea.)
--
Mike.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 01:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Lyle
[...]
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
anything quite so dishonest. Which is another reason why you're unlikely
to have anybody brilliant teaching geography. But then you don't find
many great horsemen leading donkeys along wet beaches.
Interesting. In Br these days, geography teachers are among the most
inspired and creative. Presumably because successive governments have
decided that geography, like English, languages, history, the sciences,
mathematics, music, drama, RE, and PE, is an inessential subject, and
should be moved over to make room for IT and D&T -- these are given
lots of money for kit, but continue to be taught by people who don't
know anything about them. (What, me? Disgruntled parent? I don't know
what gave you that idea.)
I know about D&Cs, and G&Ts, as well as Screech and Trauma (but you
mention that), but what is 'D&T'?

You mention 'the sciences', I think that I was one of the last people in
this country to take pure Maths and Physics for Matric. After that they
reduced it to simply 'science'.

I've never met a creative geography master and the idea of an inspired
one is, to me, oxymoronic. I'll take your word for it, though.

Though travel is interesting, in its way, despite being mainly
uncomfortable, even if done in the most luxurious manner possible, all
that interest is drained by the subject 'geography'.
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-19 04:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Though travel is interesting, in its way, despite being mainly
uncomfortable, even if done in the most luxurious manner possible, all
that interest is drained by the subject 'geography'.
Geography is fascinating. It encompasses so many little facets of
information of both scientific ilk and social studies which could
really be stuck elsewhere into other syllabi, I suppose. I ran the
weather station at school as one of my extra-mural activities. It
involved a reading at 07h00 and at 14h00 every day (Monday to
Friday), and then the sheets were sent to the Weather Bureau every
week where they were probably thrown away. I found the sections on
space fascinating, the sections on maps quite interesting and the
geology sections marvellous. You may have gathered that I liked
geography.

Curious that I majored in church history, work in English in almost
all my job descriptions and have a biological hobby (first aid).
The only school subject which I did not enjoy was mathematics. I
still don't enjoy maths related activities.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Tony Cooper
2006-05-19 05:33:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 19 May 2006 06:40:28 +0200, "Moira de Swardt"
Post by Moira de Swardt
Curious that I majored in church history, work in English in almost
all my job descriptions and have a biological hobby (first aid).
I'm curious. How do you turn first aid into a hobby?

Is it a collecting thing? Do you have a collection of band-aids, corn
plasters, wart removal remedies, tourniquets, and smelling salts
ampules?

Or, is it an active hobby? Do you carry a kit and daub knees with
tincture of iodine, apply poultices, wrap ankles, and extract
splinters?

If it is an active hobby, where do you find application? Do you stalk
the sidelines of rugby pitches, lurk in children's playgrounds, or
station yourself outside of hospital emergency rooms to offer your
services to the walk-in wounded with minor injuries?

To bring this post back into the area of English usage, what terms
have I used above are not the terms used in your country for what I
have written? Band-aid, I know, is not a term that travels
cross-pond.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 05:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Geography is fascinating. It encompasses so many little facets of
information of both scientific ilk and social studies which could
really be stuck elsewhere into other syllabi, I suppose. I ran the
weather station at school as one of my extra-mural activities. It
involved a reading at 07h00 and at 14h00 every day (Monday to
Friday), and then the sheets were sent to the Weather Bureau every
week where they were probably thrown away. I found the sections on
space fascinating, the sections on maps quite interesting and the
geology sections marvellous. You may have gathered that I liked
geography.
-------------------
That is one of my major objections. There really is no such thing as
geography. What is indeed interesting is climatology, geomorphology,
geology, geophysics, social geomorphology, physics, chemistry and so
forth. It is the best example of a jack of all trades that is master of
none.

The main problem historically (and why I suffered from such dreadful
geography masters) is that it is a subject that can be passed easily by
mere application of memory. It requires no thought whatsoever.
Consequently those who are very poor in the thought department, but
have elephantine memories do well in it and end up becoming teachers.
Thick teachers are a very bad thing, not necessarily worse than no
teacher at all, but certainly not something to be desired.

If they insisted that all geography teachers should also be capable of
teaching Latin, Mathematics, Philosophy or Biology at a high level,
then there'd be no problem at all.
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-19 04:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Now, a brilliant lecturer could make it interesting - fascinating,
probably. However, a brilliant lecturer would be unlikely to ever do
anything quite so dishonest. Which is another reason why you're unlikely
to have anybody brilliant teaching geography. But then you don't find
many great horsemen leading donkeys along wet beaches.
One of the best teachers I ever had was a geography teacher. She
must have been *particularly* brilliant because I acknowledge that
she was good despite the fact that she was a bitch of note and I
really disliked her. (The feeling was mutual). We had a class of
eleven Geography students in matric. They decided to buy her an
expensive pen as a gift. I would neither contribute nor sign the
card, and one of the girls put my share in and asked me to sign the
card. I was not giving her a gift. When there are only eleven
students in the class the absence of one signature probably does
make a statement.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 05:37:01 UTC
Permalink
One of the best teachers I ever had was a geography teacher. She
must have been *particularly* brilliant because I acknowledge that
she was good despite the fact that she was a bitch of note and I
really disliked her. (The feeling was mutual). We had a class of
eleven Geography students in matric. They decided to buy her an
expensive pen as a gift. I would neither contribute nor sign the
card, and one of the girls put my share in and asked me to sign the
card. I was not giving her a gift. When there are only eleven
students in the class the absence of one signature probably does
make a statement.
----------------------
The small class size should have made her job considerably easier.

Good lecturers (as opposed to good teachers and I was talking about
lecturers) don't have to be nice.
McGoo
2006-05-18 23:31:01 UTC
Permalink
nicknamed "Deadly" because she was dead boring.
Post by Moira de Swardt
--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
I had a history teacher with a lisp who spat on the first row. Needless to
say we fought over who would sit at the back.
Another history teacher had shell shock and would dive under her desk at
loud noises (usually made on purpose).
I must say geography was my nap time. Teacher didn't mind as long as we
didn't make a noise, perfect because I didn't snore. Her monotone voice
would put any insomniac to sleep in 10 mins flat.
I passed by the way.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 01:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moira de Swardt
nicknamed "Deadly" because she was dead boring.
Post by Moira de Swardt
--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
I had a history teacher with a lisp who spat on the first row. Needless to
say we fought over who would sit at the back.
Another history teacher had shell shock and would dive under her desk at
loud noises (usually made on purpose).
I must say geography was my nap time. Teacher didn't mind as long as we
didn't make a noise, perfect because I didn't snore. Her monotone voice
would put any insomniac to sleep in 10 mins flat.
I passed by the way.
Anybody can pass geography! The trick is to manage to fail it. I didn't
quite manage that - I gave it up for something real before that occured
- but I did feel a sense of disappointment when I was 24th out of 25 in
the class in a test instead of 25th. There was no fun in baiting
geography masters either, it was too much like trying to get a rise out
of a rock by poking it with a sharp stick. Music and Art masters were
far more the thing, enough sensitivity to get upset and enough
intelligence to understand that somebody was taking the piss without
enough of either, nor enough balls, to do anything sensible about it.

Boys aren't very nice. But, in this context, girls are sometimes nastier.
Moira de Swardt
2006-05-19 04:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Anybody can pass geography! The trick is to manage to fail it. I didn't
quite manage that - I gave it up for something real before that occured
- but I did feel a sense of disappointment when I was 24th out of 25 in
the class in a test instead of 25th. There was no fun in baiting
geography masters either, it was too much like trying to get a
rise out
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
of a rock by poking it with a sharp stick. Music and Art masters were
far more the thing, enough sensitivity to get upset and enough
intelligence to understand that somebody was taking the piss
without
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
enough of either, nor enough balls, to do anything sensible about it.
Music and art as those extra-curricular but formal studies in school
were hard done by in my day. It must have been terrible to have to
see every pupil in the lower school once a week without being able
to determine who actually likes one's subject and where there is
potential. Of course, most of the pupils with potential or actual
skills regarded the subject with contempt as well, which wouldn't
have helped.

--
Moira de Swardt posting from Johannesburg, South Africa
Remove the dot in my address to find me at home.
Post by Peter H.M. Brooks
Boys aren't very nice. But, in this context, girls are sometimes nastier.
Peter H.M. Brooks
2006-05-19 05:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Music and art as those extra-curricular but formal studies in school
were hard done by in my day. It must have been terrible to have to
see every pupil in the lower school once a week without being able
to determine who actually likes one's subject and where there is
potential. Of course, most of the pupils with potential or actual
skills regarded the subject with contempt as well, which wouldn't
have helped.
------------------------
With us they were on the curriculum - extra lessons, of course,
weren't, but we had 'music appreciation' and Art as standard.

In principle it is a very good idea. In practice, it was rather cruel
to all concerned.
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